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35 | Jennifer Hoffmann Roach, Bloomberg Live: Empathy, Grits, and, the Business of Virtual Events

  • September 22, 2020
  • 35:22

Jennifer Hoffmann Roach (Head of Audience, Bloomberg Live) shares how she and her team are taking a diversified approach to virtual event monetization, lessons learned from staging 30+ virtual events, and why a good grit is hard to find.

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Top Takeaways

1

DRIVING VALUE THROUGH CONNECTION: Key to driving a valuable experience for attendees at a Bloomberg Live virtual event is creating opportunities for attendees to connect. Jenn and her team lean on a variety of approaches to make that happen. “We're using a lot of community building tools for one-to-one networking, thinking creatively about smaller, more interactive gatherings following large summits. And we've also learned to kind of market these events differently from an in-person event.”

2

WORKING TOWARDS A HYBRID FUTURE: Moving forward, Jenn envisions that Bloomberg Live will continue to invest in virtual to complement in-person event experiences. “People are really engaging and interacting now, and I think that's going to continue. So I think we'll probably continue a lot of the hybrid pieces that we've always done while building out further interactive elements.”

3

SHOWING UP WITH EMPATHY: As a team lead during the challenges of a pandemic, economic instability, and a reckoning of racial justice, Jenn has discovered that empathy is essential for successfully supporting and managing her team. “That focus on listening, being empathetic, and making sure that you're taking into account all of the challenges that people are facing right now, is so key to being a successful leader in this time.”

ABOUT Jennifer Hoffmann Roach

Jennifer is the Global Head of Audience for Bloomberg Live, the editorial live events division of Bloomberg Media. Prior to Bloomberg, Jenn managed global marketing and audience development for The Wall Street Journal Conferences division at Dow Jones. Before working in events, she spent more than 10 years in media consulting and communications analysis for large enterprises across industries. She holds an MBA from the NYU Stern School of Business and a BA from Tulane University, and is a member of the American Marketing Association.

Episode Transcript

BRANDON:

Jenn, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today.

JENN:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

BRANDON:

I wanted to start off our conversation with something that's very, not so relevant to all the amazing work that you're doing at Bloomberg Live, but it's interesting to me. Which is that you are originally from South Carolina. I'm recently from North Carolina. That's where I'm living right now. And I just wanted to get your perspectives, as someone from the South, who's living up in New York right now. What sort of dishes do you find are hard to find in New York?

JENN:

I was born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina. I've been in New York quite a long time now. I still claim my Southern roots. Probably the one dish that you cannot get in New York that you can get in the South is grits. You can't find grits anywhere up here. You can find polenta, which is basically the same thing, but you can't find grits. That's probably the biggest thing that I have to get family to ship me up here or something so that you can just make them at home.

BRANDON:

Grits, obviously famed in the shrimp and grits. But some people, some of our listeners might not be familiar with the other ways that grits can be prepared.

JENN:

Yeah.

BRANDON:

Such as?

JENN:

I'll tell you, the biggest mistake that people who don't know grits make is they mistake it for oatmeal. And so they try to put sweet things in it. You can't put sweet things in grits. It's like rice, you got to put salt, pepper, butter, put savory things in it. That's the biggest advice I can give for people using grits.

BRANDON:

So not honey, maple syrup.

JENN:

No.

BRANDON:

Peanut butter.

JENN:

No.

BRANDON:

From my time in New York, I miss barbecue, but I think there... I guess it's not the same. My standards for barbecue are maybe lower than some other folks, but I was pretty blown away between the different spots over there, like Brother Jimmy's and-

JENN:

Yeah. You can still get that. You can at least still get it in New York. It's definitely the grits that are hard to find.

BRANDON:

A good grit is hard to find.

JENN:

There you go.

BRANDON:

Okay.

JENN:

Put that on a t-shirt.

BRANDON:

At the time of this interview, Jenn, you've been with Bloomberg for over five years. And before that you had a varied career in media consulting, communications analysis and events for a variety of large enterprises, including a tenure of over eight years at Dow Jones. Could you briefly walk us through each of these steps of your career and how they led to where you are today?

JENN:

It's funny, I've had this conversation with many colleagues who work in events over the years. And I feel like in a lot of cases, a lot of us sort of accidentally ended up working in events. When we kind of look back on the different things that we did. And for me, while I've held a number of roles across the course of my career, I think the thing that's always tied them together is a focus on the customer and consumer behavior. When I really look at the responsibilities and the different aspects of that across my career. I mean, that's true when I started my career conducting research and public sentiment analysis for large enterprises, when I was studying messaging effectiveness. That extended, when I moved into more B2B sales and consulting services for Dow Jones. And then of course, when I moved over to The Wall Street Journal conferences side of the business and started doing more broad based marketing campaigns.

And now, of course I do that for Bloomberg Live and our audience recruitment efforts. How I specifically made the move into the events business while I was at Dow Jones, I had been working in B2B consulting really for most of my career at that point. And while working on my MBA, which I did part-time while I was working at Dow Jones, I had a desire to move into more of a consumer marketing role and leverage some of those learnings that I'd gained through my MBA in consumer behavior and marketing strategy, which is where I really concentrated my efforts there. There was a position that became available on The Wall Street Journal conferences side of the business to direct marketing and audience efforts for their conferences. And I didn't really have any experience working in events specifically at that point, but looked at the kind of skill sets and the requirements for the role and said, this is really all about, ultimately when you're talking about creating, managing, communicating with audiences, it's all about understanding people in communities.

It's about understanding what motivates people, how you connect with them, how you create compelling messages for them, and address their wants and their needs. And then also data analysis. Being able to segment those audiences, see trends at scale, and then constantly just test, and iterate and innovate with all of the different campaigns that you're doing. So that's how I got into events to begin with. And then continued that when I came onto Bloomberg Live to build out the audience development effort on those events. And that's how I got here. And I really still love it.

I think with events it never gets old, because every event is like you're launching a brand new product. You're researching your audience to understand them and understand the topics that are being covered. You're creating compelling content that really is going to speak to them. And trying to figure out how you deliver that exceptional customer experience that they're going to want to repeat for the next new event that you're working on. So it allows for a lot of creativity and growth in those areas, I think.

BRANDON:

No, I love hearing that. And that that whole entire mindset of every event is its own product. That's its own unique audience and just finding different ways to speak to, and engage that audience, and keep them coming back time and time again. I think that's really cool to hear. And then another thing is also, I mean, in this case, you said you didn't necessarily start off looking for a career in events, but you saw an opportunity. You had a lot of skills that were relevant for it and you wanted to give it a try. And you did. And you took that jump. You ended up in that role. I think that's really helpful for some folks here who might be listening, who maybe are not quite on the event side of marketing or whatever their go to market organization is at their company.

JENN:

Absolutely.

BRANDON:

But I'm interested to hear when you finally made that jump into the role, what was perhaps one aspect of it or the biggest learning curve for you?

JENN:

Yeah. That's a really good question. And I think with events, and this is definitely true of in person events, also true of virtual, but when you're working in software, you're working in other services, there can be things where, okay, we're going to launch the product maybe, and it's going to, well, we need to push that feature to next quarter or something like that. You can't do that with events. The events coming, the events happening. And so it's coming, whether you're ready for it or not. And so the sense of urgency, I think, and the efficiency, and the speed with which you have to work with events, because every day gets you that much closer.

I feel like everybody in events talks about in like days out, weeks out from the event. Because every day you're getting closer to that deadline, which puts that pressure on to make sure that you're constantly delivering each day as you get closer to that. And so the speed with which you have to be working when you work in events, I think was something that was new to me. And in some cases, a different way of working than in other launches that you may see, or in other businesses. I'm sure there's other businesses that are similar to events in that way, but you're producing a show and the show must go on, as they say.

BRANDON:

It's the sort of high stakes trappings that would really lend itself to, I don't know, maybe a reality TV show or a Netflix documentary series.

JENN:

Yeah.

BRANDON:

Oh wait, maybe that's already out there. The flip side of that is that once that event is over, it's over. Whereas, I guess you have to keep planning for the next event. But you have that deadline and you know it's coming and you know that at some point it's going to be done with.

JENN:

That's the interesting thing, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about this. But in virtual events as well, as kind of how you do though continue that conversation after the event, and kind of keep that connective tissue going with those conversations from event to event is kind of interesting too.

BRANDON:

And that's very much your bread and butter as the Head of Audience at Bloomberg Live. I guess to transition there, could you provide us with a little bit more context on your current responsibilities at Bloomberg Live?

JENN:

So Bloomberg Live is the editorial events arm of Bloomberg Media, and we produce news driven events on a host of topics around the world. The team that I lead, their role is to curate the audiences for who attends our events. We're working really at the intersection of data and relationships. We do a lot of research and analysis to define executive personas that are going to be drawn to a particular program, persuade those executives to attend by bringing that event experience to life for them. And then really building out that one-to-one rapport to ensure future participation and continue those conversations, like we say. The team I lead, that's what we do at Bloomberg Live.

BRANDON:

Continuing those conversations with those audiences.

JENN:

Absolutely.

BRANDON:

With that context in mind, could you tell us a little bit more information about how the Bloomberg Live team is structured, a general scope of the team and where folks are working from?

JENN:

There's really four legs to the stool, as we say, of our business. The first is editorial. We have a team of editors who lead programming for our events, developing the themes, and then the content for each event, and working with our bureaus around the world to help find the best speakers. Audience, my bias, of course. My area. Is where we work in close contact with our editorial teams and our sponsorship teams to ensure we're bringing together audiences that align both with our partner objectives and with the program content itself.

We have our event production teams, which is the third leg of the stool. That our global events team works to produce the show. And that is true from front of house, for our in person events, to managing the technology that powers our virtual events and really everything in between. And then our marketing and sponsorship teams are those that set the strategy for and positioning for our portfolio events in the marketplace. And then work with our sponsor partners to deliver great experiences for them.

Those are really the four different areas that support the production of our Bloomberg Live events. We're a globally deployed team. Bloomberg is obviously a global organization and that's a part of everything that we do. And it's great because we can then size and scale to meet the needs of our events at the moment. So it puts us in a really great position to be able to quickly ramp up our business as needed. We do have regional hubs for Bloomberg Live operations in New York, London, and Hong Kong.

BRANDON:

We have these four pillars of the editorial team, the audience team, the production team, and the sponsorship team. And I imagine there's a ton of working in concert to make every single one of these events happen. I know, especially in this COVID-19 world that we're in right now, the way that we communicate with our teams has shifted a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about what that communication process is like with your different teams as you have an event coming up?

JENN:

I think a lot of communication methods remain similar when you're producing in person events. And when we're together, physically in the office. We're having those milestone meetings each week, in some cases kind of your scrum meetings multiple times a week to make sure that you're sticking to those milestones, that you're completing those deadlines and to meet the event. I think with so many of us, everyone kind of being remote right now and being able to work, I think there's even more global collaboration across teams as the differences in time zones, in many cases go away and those geographic limitations go away.

I think we're collaborating in an even more global context than we did before on events. And a lot of it is because you can't as easily now do the, just kind of pop by someone's desk to ask them a question, and I think this is true across businesses. People see more meetings that need to be scheduled in on a regular basis to make sure that you have those points of replacing that popping by someone's desk instance in that case.

BRANDON:

Well, I know we're going to dive into that a little bit more later on in our discussion. For now, let's pivot to the virtual event program that you and the Bloomberg Live team is currently running. I know that we had the chance to speak about Bloomberg Live and how you all are tackling virtual events during Bizzabo Virtual Summit, (Almost) IN-PERSON back in May. And since then, you and the Bloomberg Live team have produced more than 30 virtual events. And depending on when our listeners are tuning into this episode, maybe a month from now, two months, three months from now, it could be many more virtual events. What have been some of your main learnings from these iterations, these 30+ events?

JENN:

Yes. So many opportunities for learning. It's been great, really. It's been a lot of fun. I think two of the biggest areas for learning for us have been in how we deliver value to our sponsors and our audiences, ultimately. As the calculus shifts a little bit for virtual events compared to in person, for both of those areas. I think for sponsors, it's more about finding a way to really make their thought leadership shine as a part of the overall event. In addition, of course, to brand awareness and amplification of that content, we have had the opportunity for our sponsor partners to truly add value to the conversation in some creative ways, with different sponsor moments that we're able to place throughout the virtual program. One example of that was at our Marquee Invest Global event. One of our premier sponsors kicked off the day with setting the stage presentation.

Rather than usual opening remarks that you would see, it was really tailored to their expertise in these areas. It was really beneficial to them, it was a seamless integration, and it really made sense and added value across the program because of the nature of the firm and the perspectives that they have. That's where we're working even further and even more to be really consultative partners with our sponsors to discuss what assets they have, how they can be mutually beneficial to all of us and just make a great event overall. And then with the audiences, we're always looking at ways we can continue to engage throughout the events and replace the traditional networking experience that you have at an in person event. We're using a lot of community building tools for one-to-one networking, thinking creatively about smaller, more interactive gatherings following large summits. And we've also learned to kind of market these events differently from an in person event.

As you mentioned earlier, with an in person event, when the event concludes, people leave. And with virtual events, there is this real opportunity to promote the content post-event to people who either were unable to join live, or maybe didn't hear about it until after the fact. They don't miss that opportunity to join in on those key highlights. And so we're able to continue to prompt that interest. And then I think finally, I mean, we're just constantly looking for ways that we can continue to provide points of differentiation in the events space. And that's true, whether we're looking at virtual hybrid or in person events.

I think what differentiates us now that we find really, really valuable in the marketplace is that we have a distinct point of view that really examines all of these global issues through the lens of business with a uniquely global footprint through our newsroom, which is the largest in the world, and through our platforms, which provide really significant amplification of our programming. How we can lean in on those points of differentiation further to continue to improve the events and see where we can learn further.

BRANDON:

It's great to hear about the way that you're thinking about audience and sponsorships have shifted in some ways. Is that something that you would see potentially further down the line, even when we're outside of virtual events and back to in person, implementing?

JENN:

I think for kicking off the events, where the events are always hosted by Bloomberg's editorial team, we're always looking at ways that we can just integrate this content in a more creative way into our events.

BRANDON:

Are there any other examples that come to mind in terms of sponsorships, and those integrations and creating those moments?

JENN:

That's what it's ultimately all about is figuring out how we can create meaningful moments for the sponsors throughout the event. The biggest area for that is just as we work to become even more sophisticated in understanding the goals of our sponsors, how we're working to help them meet those goals through the event. And there's so many different ways you can go with that, depending on what is going to produce that real value. And so I think the ultimate answer on that is really just really being a consultative partner and understanding where's the real value going to be provided there and how we can integrate that in a meaningful way.

BRANDON:

I'm sure that's something that your partners are looking for as well, is some guidance and some collaboration as we tackle this new medium.

JENN:

Absolutely.

BRANDON:

Back to the audience side. One of the things you mentioned is that virtual content is very different and that it can be engaged with in a completely different way after it's already happened. You mentioned looking into different ways to connect folks and network. Have there been any approaches that you have found to be particularly successful, or programs or communities?

JENN:

We continue to do a lot of promotion through our channels on social media, so that we can pull out key clips and highlights from the event. I think sometimes being able to share that content or some of the key points that were made in content have made some of those very successful in increasing awareness of the event for people who maybe hadn't seen it before. Really doing a lot with trying to take that content and package it up in different ways so that we can increase awareness of the content out in the world and have other people come back to join us for the event and watch it on demand.

BRANDON:

Something else I think is really interesting is how in addition to these events that are primarily supported by sponsors, I know that Bloomberg Live has paid events that are part of the Breakaway CEO Network series. Could you share with us a little bit more about this Breakaway program, its in-person roots before this moment, and how you are now adapting it for virtual?

JENN:

Yeah, absolutely. The Breakaway Network was started... I'll just give some of the background on it, back in 2016. And it was really built around a CEO Summit and day of workshops in New York. And the goal of the network continues to be, is really to build a community of leaders across industries, who can learn from each other and other business legends, industry experts, in areas that are important to management, regardless of what industry you're in. Whether you're a service business, a manufacturer, a tech startup, what have you. We see across companies and across CEOs who are leading those companies, the constant battle for talent is true in any industry. The need for strategic tools to build sustainable growth and to be innovative, all of these different lessons that they can learn from each other and from the experts in the business leaders that we can bring to those discussions as well.

This year we've pivoted the Breakaway program to virtual, to try and deliver more of those opportunities for connection across the year. We've added monthly round tables for members to speak with each other on key issues that have been incredibly interesting moments in time to address different issues that businesses are dealing with right now. And then quarterly, larger town hall style briefings. And we found this gives us a much greater opportunity to connect with our members more frequently and across borders as well because people can come together.

We've had four-one round table, people from many different countries joined for that one moment in time, because you're not limited to people who are in a particular geographic area.

BRANDON:

That's so cool.

JENN:

Yeah. It's been really great. And so, that's something that we definitely plan on continuing, the virtual program in 2021, as we do look to move back to in person as soon as it's safe to do so, so that we don't lose... I mentioned this before, keeping up that connective tissue between events. And really being able to continue to tell that story, and make those connections and build that out further. So, that's been something we're real excited about.

BRANDON:

Yeah, that's amazing. It's taking these individuals who are part of this greater network and providing them a chance to connect in a way that they haven't been able to before. You're mentioning folks from four different countries. I don't know how many different time zones that is, but all being in the same virtual room, taking part in the same experience together. That's very cool. I guess that sort of takes me to the next question that I had. Which is, it sounds like there are definitely things that are challenging about virtual events, there are things that are a little bit more restrictive than in person events, but as you and your team look towards 2021 and beyond, what are some ways that you're thinking about combining elements from both in person and virtual in your event programs?

JENN:

I think we see tremendous opportunity to continue leveraging virtual as a part of our longterm strategy. But at the same time, we're excited to get back to in person events as soon as we can, as soon as it's safe to, as soon as it's safe for us to get back to that. In many ways, our events have always been hybrid. For example, we've always amplified our coverage across our channels, broadcasted our live events on bloomberg.com and the Bloomberg Terminal. And so we definitely feel that when we return to in person events, those virtual elements are going to remain a part of our strategy, with probably more enhancements for further interactive elements for them. Because I think another interesting aspect of this is through this time, how people's opinions have changed of online versions of events. Whereas, previously it may have been a more passive experience.

People are really engaging and interacting now, and I think that's going to continue. So I think we'll probably continue a lot of the hybrid pieces that we've always done while building out further interactive elements to that. Right now, we're really focused on our upcoming calendar of virtual events, which is booked through the balance of 2020. And then, like I say, plan to add those in person elements to those events as soon as it's safe to do so.

And that may mean a primarily virtual event where we're able to convene small groups in certain cities or regions before we return to a very traditional large scale event. And again, I mean the bottom line is we're totally committed to in person events, and the way that we're structured, and the way that we can globally deploy, we're ready and able to flip that switch back to in person events. When again, as we say, it's safe to do so. And of course, that is changing rapidly in different parts of the country, and in different parts of the world and in different regions that we're keeping a close eye on.

BRANDON:

One thing that really stands out from what you shared is sort of that changing in audience expectations. And that growing familiarity with virtual platforms, like more people than ever before are using them, they're getting familiar with them. But with that comes a greater demand for what somebody wants out of that virtual experience from that interaction and engagement standpoint.

JENN:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it really helps with those geographic limitations fall away, where we can reach people kind of where they are, who may not be able to experience that fully immersive experience of in-person. Which of course is the magic of an in person event and capturing that magic. But it gives broader reach for others to participate as well, which is great.

BRANDON:

Let's talk about you, and your team and the way that you all have been adapting to this new mindset a little bit more. Virtual requires its own course of planning, training, resources and platforms. In what ways has 2020 required learning and un-learning when it comes to the ways that you are working with your team?

JENN:

So much learning and un-learning.

BRANDON:

I wish people could have seen your face just then. There were like five different emotions that just passed by. One of them was, I think, joy.

JENN:

It's been incredible. I am so blessed to be with the team that I work with, and everyone is so dedicated, and so nimble, and smart and capable of meeting these challenges. But I think the shift earlier this year to basically everyone in the world working from home required, as you say, learning and unlearning, for all companies and teams. And for us, it also at the same time, required kind of a massive shift in processes and tools as we were launching this new program of virtual events for our audiences. And so, like I say, I've been incredibly impressed with our teams and how they've handled that transition. And from a management perspective, the key word that I just keep in mind every day is empathy. And that's what we hear from a lot of folks as well, is really emphasizing the need to really park my assumptions at the door or my experiences at the door.

And really think first about the unique circumstances that my team members are in, which may be very different than mine. I think compounding that need for empathy is the fact that in addition to the pandemic and the challenges that people are facing working through that at this time, the fight against racial injustice has reached new heights. As awareness has grown about systemic racism, and the issues that people of color face in society and in business. And working in a news business, we are fortunate to be able to address those issues head on in our events, which I think is one area that is very rewarding of the events that we produce.

Particularly, through our Bloomberg Equality events, which launched a couple of years ago in person, and have continued as virtual series throughout this year. And also addressing issues like that, like environmental justice in our new series of Bloomberg Green events that are built around Bloomberg Media's climate change editorial initiative. That just focus on listening, being empathetic and making sure that you're taking into account all of the challenges that people are facing right now, is so key I think to being able to be a successful leader in this time.

BRANDON:

That's absolutely huge. It really is. There's been so much to deal with this past year. And on top of that, we're still working for our businesses. We still want our businesses to succeed and we have to juggle that too. It can be really challenging at times. Empathy, listening. Totally agree. Looking back at your career or things that are going on right now, who's someone you look up to in the events world, in marketing or business?

JENN:

There's so many different people I could name that I think are just outstanding business executives, and people who put on great events and marketing. I think right now, at this point in time though, the people I look up to most in business are all of the small business owners out there. There are these small business owners across the country right now who are showing so much fortitude, and creativity and bravery to keep their businesses alive in this tough time. I think it is just unbelievably impressive. The person I look up to in business right now is the small business owner. It's such a challenge right now.

BRANDON:

Yeah. It is. Another unique aspect of 2020 and everything that is going on. I think that's the first time that I've heard that mentioned on the show. It's a small business owner. But, that's the reality.

JENN:

Yeah.

BRANDON:

If you could give an earlier version of yourself one piece of advice, what would it be and why?

JENN:

Just one piece of advice? Because I've got a list.

BRANDON:

We could do top three.

JENN:

I think I can come up with something every day that I need to tell myself 20 years ago. Like stop eating so many carbs. I wish I'd told myself that many years ago.

BRANDON:

But, carbs are great.

JENN:

Yeah. So good. Seriously, the older that I get, the more I realize that you have no idea what your life is going to be like in five years or even next year. We keep talking about the uniqueness of 2020, but no years proven that more right than this one. No one who said, "In 2020, I'm going to be doing XYZ." And we got it right. Nobody, nobody. I think the biggest piece of advice I would give myself is not to try to perfect that five-year plan, perfect that 10-year plan, that the most important plan that you really, really need is a contingency plan.

With that, when you have that, you can actually take bigger chances. You can say yes more, to more things, which is another piece of advice I'd give myself. Say yes to more things. Because when you have that plan in place to deal with the potential risk, you can actually take bigger risk and take more chances, because you know you're prepared, and you can cope with those unexpected twists and turns that life is guaranteed to throw at you. That would be the biggest piece of advice I would say to my younger self.

BRANDON:

That seems extremely applicable for the career in general. But also if you are planning say, a large executive in person event.

JENN:

Exactly, exactly. Absolutely.

BRANDON:

We're pretty much out of time, which is a shame, because I wanted to hear more pieces of advice. But we'll cap it there. We're recording this in August right now, towards the end of August. This episode is going to be debuting at HubSpot's INBOUND, as part of our in-person podcast season two launch. And I know that some of the events that we've discussed that you've mentioned will have already happened. Other events are going to be right around the corner in October and beyond. In any case, what are some ways that our listeners can keep up with Bloomberg Live and all of the great work you and your team are doing?

JENN:

You can see all of our upcoming events and also view playbacks of any of our past virtual events on our website, which is bloomberglive.com. And so that includes the Bloomberg Green Festival, our Invest Global event and the Bloomberg Equality Summit, just to name a few of the many that we've produced. And you can access them all at bloomberglive.com. We also have a fantastic podcast series. I'm assuming if people are listening to this, they may be into podcasts. Called, Out of Office. And that's where our editors lead conversations with our speakers on the types of things they don't typically get asked in the office, more their life upbringing, personal, all of these different topics. That's called Out of Office. And then you can also find Bloomberg Live on Twitter, on LinkedIn and Instagram, as Bloomberg Live. And follow us there for updates also.

BRANDON:

Jenn, thanks so much for taking the time to chat today.

JENN:

Thank you so much, Brandon. This has been really great. Always fun to catch up with you.